MS is a cantrip offered to four classes, Bard, Sorc, Lock, Wiz. It does minor (d6) damage and imposes a d4 penalty on saves if its target fails an INT save. That is an amazing effect, one of the very few, perhaps only spammable ability that affects saving throws and it hits INT a rarely targeted stat that is often low and fairly easy to judge before the cast.MS Effect
Looking at the MS spell in a vacuum, it seems useful to me. The damage is less than pure damage cantrips and it creates the opportunity to debuff for the future. I like spell combos and debuffing in general. Something that encourages planning and taking actions now to benefit later is something that I want to encourage.
That affect on saving throws is pretty unique and potentially problematic, but that's not a reason to not have it. It is what makes this spell interesting.
If the spell is a reasonable choice, not a "must have" ability or game breaker, I'm in favor of inclusion.
MS vs VM
Mind Sliver is listed as available to Bards, so my first point of comparison was to Viscous Mockery (VM), the bard (near) exclusive that imposes disadvantage on next attack and trivial damage (d4) on a failed WIS save.
Disadvantage on your enemies next attack is nice, though enemies likely have more than one attack and can use the worst attack first reducing the debuffs benefit. Additionally disadvantage can be imposed a lot of other ways, if any of those are in effect, the debuff does nothing. This makes VM's debuff a sometimes useful effect.
A penalty on next saving throw is both very hard to find, and nearly guaranteed to be beneficial. This makes MS an extremely attractive spell. On the damage side, it's hard to argue that a d4 is better than a d6.
MS is just plain better than VM. Oh yea, VM is a Bard class exclusive. It is a signature spell that should be impactful and something I'd hope Bards would want to use.
Comparing a Bunch of Cantrips
When I line up a bunch of popular damage cantrips, MS seems to slot into the group pretty well. The cantrips that emphasize damage do 11 or more average damage per cast with long range. The spells that do 9 average damage all throw in a potentially useful side effect (exception: Sacred Flame which underwhelms a bit). The next tier down do 7 average damage and offer an impactful effect.
The outlier in this comparison is Viscous Mockery with a meager 5 and the exact same effect as the more widely available Frostbite. To a lesser extent Sacred Flame is also weak compared to its peers.
Looking at this set, I end up feeling that Mind Sliver is reasonably powered. It gives up damage in exchange for a future benefit that encourages thoughtful choices without making it simply better than VM which in turn seems pretty much worse than all of the other spells.
Adjusting Viscous Mockery
While I started considering Mind Sliver, I've circled the drain and reached the seeming conclusion that VM is the problem. It does less damage and scales more slowly than all of the other cantrips. It is directly overshadowed by the more widely available Frostbite while being THE damage cantips for Bards. This just seems wrong.
Bumping VM's damage up to d6 would put it on par with Frostbite, this seems like a no brainer. Frostbite hits a likely stronger stat (CON) than Viscous Mockery (WIS) and its damage type is more likely to be resisted. This would net out to VM being slightly stronger than Frostbite.
Cantrip scaling is a different angle, where VM falls short. In Tier 1, a single attack is fairly typical, making next attack and next action close to the same thing. As tiers increase, the number of opponents who multi-attack sky rocket which reduces the benefit of the debuff. This puts these spells at a disadvantage to other debuff cantrips that affect the target's next turn or a controllably significant action.
Perhaps VMs debuff should scale with tier? Have it affect the target's next two attacks on the next turn starting at level 5, next three at level 10, all at level 15. But that is more complicated than RAW. I don't like more complicated. How about a simpler approach and make it all attacks for the next turn at all levels. I like it, that's simple and more like the other cantrip debuffs.
If VM did a d6, it would be on par with MS for damage, but it would be inferior on the effect side and stat targeted. If it was a d8 it would be better for damage and worse for effect. That seems like it sets up a meaningful choice, but only if the debuff is generally weaker than MS. I think it would keep it a go to cantrip, much like eldritch blast. That feels right to me.
If VM's debuff is buffed, the damage can go to a d6 and make it a situational choice. I can see a Bard wanting either, maybe both of these as attack cantrips. They would be teh same on the damage front and offer either a defensive or offensive debuff option.
What About Frostbite?
Using the same logic, Frostbite's debuff could be improved to make it affect the target's next whole turn on a failed save. That makes the spell a bit better, but still a tad behind VM as the save is generally worse and the damage type more often resisted.What was that about Sacred Flame?
As I was going through these Cantrips, I observed that Sacred Flame is the only below d10 attack cantrip without a meaningful debuff additional affect. Sure, it ignores cover which is handy since it is a DEX save spell and would otherwise be affected by cover which would make it clearly inferior to all other attack cantrips. But, it gives up some damage d8 vs d10 for absolutely no additional benefit.I think it should have some effect that makes it a tactical option. It's easy to extrapolate what is there to achieve that. Add a debuff to the target that negates cover for the next attack. This would, situationally, make it like Guiding Bolt, allowing the Cleric to help the next attack by lighting up the target.
Conclusions
I'm liking all of those adjustments, I'm leaning toward the following may be adopted in my games:
- Mind Sliver as written in UA is allowed,
- Viscous Mockery has its damage increased to d6 from d4,
- VM and Frostbite impose disadvantage on the victims next turn, on a failed save,
- Sacred Flame negates cover on the next attack aimed at the target, on a failed save.
Other thoughts? Holes in my thinking?
We put these changes into effect last session and they seemed fine. MS was used multiple times and while it didn't matter (targets died too quickly), the benefit of reducing a saving throw was obvious. VM was used and the d6 made the damage componenta bit more interesting. The improved debuff effect didn't matter on mobs that had a single attack, but that improvement seems to make the spell likely to continue being relevant.
ReplyDeleteJoe, speaking as a Bard that would benefit from these changes, I think I disagree with this at this point.
ReplyDeleteSecondo could hold action until Ellandra goes with Mind Sliver, Secondo goes immediately after her with -1d4 and everyone that gets attacked with disadvantage.
I think if Secondo actually hits with VM it should be 1d4 and disadvantage on next BUT the next attack the enemy takes is forced to be their fiercest. Usually a (bite) with regular (claws) follow up.
I think it would be fair, otherwise we could lock down any opponent we run into. Might keep Tremor alive, but I'd rather have some risk.
There isn't much difference between a d4 and a d6 of damage, so it doesn't matter very much on that front. However, VM is the only cantrip doing less than a d6 and several of them have significant debut elements. I really think it should be a d6. Especially when compares to Frostbite that does a d6 with exactly the same debuff.
ReplyDeleteI want the debuff to remain simple, next attack is mechanically simple and all attacks for next round works fine to (and parallels other effects). Having it affect the strongest attack sounds ok, it eliminates using an off-hand attack to drop the debuff. But it can run into corner cases, consider a critter that bites for a d8 and stings for a d4 and poison, which is strongest then?
I'm favoring either all attacks in a round or 1 attack selected by the caster before the attack roll is made would be fine. The select one attack formulation is the same form as cutting words.